Tiffany Robinson (00:02.269)
Today's guests are on a mission to reshape how we relate to caregivers and how we show up as care partners. Sue Ryan has been both a family caregiver and leadership coach to those navigating care. She's also the author of international bestselling book, Our Journey of Love.

creator of an award-winning caregiving course and offers insight into partnering with professional caregivers in a community setting. Nancy Treister brings the perspective of someone who welcomed a professional caregiver into her home and co-founded the non-profit The Caregiver's Journey with Sue to help other caregivers.

Together, we'll talk about what it means to build healthy relationships with caregivers and how to move from us versus them to a true partnership. Sue, Nancy, thank you both so much for joining us here on Comfort Connections. Before we dive in, can you each share a little about your personal journey with caregiving and what led you to this work?

Sue Ryan (01:05.902)
My first caregiving journey began when I was in my mid-20s. And it continued, three of the journeys that have been most impactful for me in my life were my grandmother, my dad, and my husband. In the beginning, I said I felt like I was often on an emotional roller coaster blinded. I didn't know it, I didn't know. I couldn't find answers. We would try something that worked. It was just really, really frustrating. And over the years, I benefited from others sharing.

And I learned and I recognized if I'm going to continue to be on this journey, I want to help others learn faster and more easily than I did. And that's what led me to the book, the course, and now this wonderful, amazing podcast and partnership with Nancy with our nonprofit.

Nancy Treaster (01:51.235)
So my father lived with Parkinson's for 25 years and I supported my mother and my sister in that in supporting him. Then my husband lived with frontotemporal dementia for about 10 years and my father-in-law lived with Alzheimer's for about six years. All of those caregiving journeys we had at home paid caregivers, professional caregivers who came into our home.

And all of those journeys ironically ended last year at the same time. In January, my father passed, October, my father-in-law, and December, my husband. We are fortunate enough to still be supporting my mother, who's 86, and my mother-in-law, who's 90. But the difficult caregiving journeys of those three people all ended last year, but all were supported with family caregivers, but also paid caregivers in our home.

Tiffany Robinson (02:46.663)
My goodness, I am so sorry to hear about the losses that you've experienced in this last year. I think hearing from both of you, you both come with quite a bit of caregiving experience, even just in your own families, which is a lot. So today we wanna talk about building healthy relationships with caregivers. So often families don't know how to interact with professional caregivers and vice versa.

I know we've talked, we mentioned about it's not us versus them, but all of us together against the diagnosis. Can we dig into that? What are some steps both professional caregivers and family caregivers can take to move to this mindset?

Sue Ryan (03:34.71)
When we think about the relationship that we have, all of us are working toward the best outcome for our loved one, our care receiver, also for our journey in support of them. And when we're getting support from someone else, we're all a team, and we're a team against the diagnosis. Nancy and I were introduced to this first by James Lee, who's the CEO and founder of

Bella Groves and he recognized that the best way to communicate the importance of that collaboration was really the distinction of it's us versus the diagnosis. And from my lens, when I have worked in the communities with my loved ones, care team, I've always seen it as a partnership. It is that it's a collaboration and the word is so important. It is a collaboration.

And I, from the very beginning, and I know we'll talk a little bit more about it in the podcast, but I want to know as much about how I can support them being in the best position to provide care as for them to understand the needs of my loved one and then what's important to me. So when we look at it, it is the community, the caregiver, our loved one, and it's us. So it's all of us coming together to collaborate for the best level of care. And that's going to vary.

And yet when we clearly set up expectations and we know we're all working toward the same common goal, it makes it much easier.

Tiffany Robinson (05:07.891)
I know I was taking a look at the caregiver's journey and something that I saw that you guys really talk about is having a care plan that is created. And I know coming from the home care world myself, we of course find an importance in a care plan. Of course we want to know things like what's their history? What does the day to day look like? But I think with you guys, we're taking that care plan a step further. It's those little things that can

help caregivers really kind of step in to their world and really help have better days, help the family when we know these little things, even things down to what things does dad like? How does dad like his coffee? Does dad like to watch the prices right at 1130? And you guys are going to guess the prices together. I think it's really important that we know, of course, the big things in the care plan. We've got to those small

that really make a world of difference. Can you share a little bit about care plan creation and what that looks like?

Nancy Treaster (06:16.727)
think Sue's the best person to answer this. She is the queen of the care plan. So I'm going to let her talk.

Tiffany Robinson (06:20.614)
Hahaha

Sue Ryan (06:21.646)
Well, Nancy's not giving herself enough credit for the amazing one she did. I am the queen of the notebook and mine has to be plural because I made notebooks for everything. I wanted to make sure that I was doing everything I possibly could to prepare everyone for part of it and it was an interactive. So I'm putting together the information that will help them. Like you said, they like to watch the prices right.

or this is a food they don't like, or the things that we know of that can be helpful. And then we want them to be sharing the things that they're observing because our loved one is changing, they're in a different environment. So when we're putting together the care plan, and it depends on the different season of the life they're in, it is all the different components that are gonna help the team, the entire team, be able to provide the best level of care. This book,

and the content in it is going to be a little bit different whether you've got your loved one at home or whether you have them in a care community. It's also going to include other people to contact. It's going to be including things, the tools that you use. It's going to be including ways that you can have a mechanism if there's an emergency. Who do you call? What do you do? What are other things? So you think ahead of time of the different experiences that would go on. Now,

I'm sharing some of these things and as Nancy knows and she can comment, there are organizations who actually help provide these, whether it's a notebook or a digital version of it. Nancy, maybe you can share some of the things that you can take it to any level you want.

Nancy Treaster (07:56.969)
I do believe that today's world, what was a care plan years ago, which had to be, you didn't have a choice, it was a care plan in a notebook. There are a lot of options today. There's definitely applications like ELI plan, E-L-E-P-L-A-N, and others where you can document the care plan online, keep their medications listed, keep their doctors appointments, keep the information about.

how the doctor's appointment went, keep the information about their likes and dislikes and what they like for lunch and such, all documented in a piece of technology that particularly if you have a caregiver, a paid caregiver that you would give access to that application, it's appropriate because they can just search something that they're looking for, lunch, what to make for lunch. And they don't have to actually flip through an entire book to find it. It's also really good for families because

When you go to a doctor's appointment, don't always want to have to call every single person and give them an update on every single thing that happens. It's documented and you're putting it in a piece of technology. Everyone knows after the doctor's appointment to go out to the care plan online and take a look and see the results.

Sue Ryan (08:54.135)
Mm-hmm.

Tiffany Robinson (09:11.123)
That's fantastic to keep everyone in the loop. That's amazing. When we're thinking about this notebook, Sue, you mentioned kind of communication and that triggered me to think, are we also using this notebook for just kind of communication back and forth? How was the day? Did mom maybe not eat lunch? She normally eats a great lunch. Today she was picking at things. Are we kind of taking notes in this notebook as well to be shared with family members?

so that they have an idea of how the shift went.

Sue Ryan (09:44.824)
Sure, my goal and what I did is I talked with any of the members of the team. I wanted everybody to be able to participate in what information would be helpful for them. And I also asked them how they wanted to be communicated with. And so when we have a care plan and we have multiple members of the care team, what we want to understand is how do we get the right information to the people who are going to receive it in the way they can receive it? As Nancy mentioned, there are some wonderful digital ways and someone could just.

be entering that information in digitally. And then you've got someone and they don't have access to digital technology or they prefer not to use digital technology. So when you respect and honor them, how do you do some things that can be supportive of them? Or do you have a family member who says, well, I'll call them. We don't need to put that in writing. But what you do is you collaborate, again, a collaboration as a team. What's the most impactful and effective way we get the information out? And then if we have questions or if we have concerns or

Big reason that I wanted to have the care plan available to absolutely everyone is if somebody starts to notice a change, the longer the pathway and the runway we have to when we've started to observe something different, I wanted them to record it didn't matter how big or small a deal it was. We don't know the trajectory necessarily of the diagnosis. We don't know if there's the beginning of a medical condition. So when you have people who are intentionally observing someone and they notice something, you know, write it, record it, and so we can do something with it.

Tiffany Robinson (11:11.165)
I think you said it with collaboration is the key word there. When we can collaborate with one another, it's a true partnership that we're building. Now, one thing that I have noticed when I'm working with families is that they can feel nervous about trusting someone else with their loved one. You know, if we think about it, if I'm hiring someone to do landscaping, I may never even see this individual beyond maybe waving to them. I might be at work when they've come

and they've done the work, but when we have someone providing home care, they're coming into the home. They're providing help with very personal tasks. We're helping people with toileting. We're helping people with dressing. So how do we help people work through that trust? How do we gain trust?

Sue Ryan (12:01.326)
I think that's such an excellent question. I'm really glad that you're asking that because when we look at it, when we're hiring a professional, they're a professional because they said, I'm choosing to do this. I'm going to go get trained. I have to get certified. I have done this. I've got experience. So they've learned and they've got their lens. They've also had the relationships they've had with other families who they've worked with. When they come to us to that...

They've got things that have worked well, they've got things that haven't. They've had family members who were kind, they've had family members who weren't kind. So I know they're walking in and they don't know what to expect. And I also know that I am limited in what I know to what I already know. And I want to make sure I'm putting them in the best position to have the most positive relationship. I want to make sure that I'm as open as possible to giving them space to try things.

that they feel maybe of help to our loved one. And so again, from the very, very beginning, it's clear communication. It's really setting expectations. It's inviting them. It's saying, you know, together we're doing this as a team and we're both going to come together. So in the very beginning, it's reasonable. We wouldn't necessarily know how to communicate with each other clearly. So err on the side of too much and we'll figure it out. There's no judgment. What we're doing is we're

We're kind of, we're going to observe each other. They're observing us, we're observing them. Let's share, let's talk about it. And we want to learn the things that they're observing. They're a different set of eyes and ears based on their experience. And Nancy, you've got such a fabulous story about the way that Cathy and your husband did something that was, I think is such a beautiful example of that. But when you show,

as the loved one, when you show someone coming into your home or when you're in a care community, that you respect and honor them and you want their insights and you ask for them. And then when you receive them, you use them, you do something with them that really helps them recognize that this is what is going to be the right path going forward.

Nancy Treaster (14:13.825)
So I think trust goes both ways and Sue's actually done a good job of focusing on the caregiver as well because they're as concerned about coming into your environment as you are about them coming into your environment. It's a two-way street and I think caregivers often, family caregivers, the family side often starts off with a

Nancy Treaster (14:47.469)
very skeptical approach, if you will, to the new person who's coming into the home to care give, as opposed to coming in with the concept of this is a paid caregiver and I'm going to give them my trust or at least work towards giving them my trust and assume that they know what they're doing and assume that they're going to be able to pick up how to care for my

my loved one, it's not going to be perfect upfront because you need to teach them the routine and teach them the things that your loved one makes them happy and things that they like to do and don't like to do and how you change their depends if you're doing something like that. You have to go through what your routine is and then you have to be open to that may not be the best way to do it. I learned a long time ago, paid caregiver, a trained paid caregiver,

They know all sorts of great ways to do things. And if you walk in the door and start, and they walk in the door and you start telling them how to do everything, you know, and you will, because you can't help yourself, leave some space for their expertise to come into the equation. Leave some space for that. You might need to start with the way you do it at first, but realize you need to leave space for them and you've got to leave an open line of communication for them to say,

Sue Ryan (15:45.55)
Yep, they do.

Tiffany Robinson (15:48.07)
you

Nancy Treaster (16:12.291)
Well, have you thought about doing it like this instead? Because I guarantee you they have a better way, like almost to do everything. So you need to step back, leave some space for them to be the expert and then transition as the trust bills between your care receiver and the new paid caregiver. Then you need to find a way to sort of back away as well and not hover and micromanage the whole situation because that's also gonna be.

Sue Ryan (16:35.736)
Mm-hmm.

Nancy Treaster (16:39.243)
If you're not trusting someone that's new in your home, you're going to tend to hover and micromanage. Something you have to keep in mind, there's a shortage of paid caregivers. You want this person to want to come to your house or to your loved one and work. You want to be a family they want to go work for. so you have to...

A lot of caregivers make the mistake, a lot of families make the mistake of assuming, thinking of things only from their perspective as the family's perspective. And so that starts that adversarial relationship right up front. I have to advocate for my loved one. They're not gonna do it right. I'm only concerned about how my loved one gets cared for. And they forget that this is a actual human being. It's a paid caregiver. They're a person. And so you have to find a way to...

make them feel comfortable, open that level of communication as Sue explained, and put them in the best position to be successful. And that means letting them be the professional caregiver at some point.

Tiffany Robinson (17:42.397)
I like how both of you have talked about clear communication. also like how Nancy, you said it may not be perfect at first. And I think that's such a huge thing that we have to almost accept. mean, coming even from the professional caregivers, we're coming in and we are coming into their home. We have to be respectful. We have to understand that there are family caregivers who have been really holding this on their own until these professional caregivers

until we've come in, I was gonna ask you next, and you've kind of touched on it. How does that family caregiver go from being the manager of everything, right? You've been doing everything, and now we don't wanna have this caregiver feel like we're micromanaging them, but we are still wanting to be that advocate for our loved ones. What are some tips that you have that can just be helpful for that family member who you need help, and you're struggling, and you've been holding this load on your own, but we also, again,

and we want these caregivers to want to work for us.

Nancy Treaster (18:44.761)
Exactly. So one of the first things that I want to bring up is it does depend on the caregiver. You'll notice as soon as they walk in the door, some caregivers will, some professional caregivers will walk in the door and without saying it, you can feel the get out of my way. I got this. And you know, usually those are the ones who've been doing it for a really long time and you need to respect that, help them understand what your routine is, but also get out of their way because they got this.

Tiffany Robinson (19:04.347)
Right.

Nancy Treaster (19:14.315)
Some will walk in the door and they'll be a little more timid to take, hesitant to take over right away and they'll look to you for a lot of direction. So you need to give them the amount of direction they feel comfortable that they need before you let them take over. That doesn't mean you acquiesce and, you know, wash your hands of all responsibility because that's unfair to the paid caregiver as well. But it does mean you don't hover once they...

Once they do have it and they understand how your loved one likes their sandwich to be made for lunch and how your loved one likes to be bathed and once they're in the routine, it doesn't mean that you relinquish all responsibility, but do not hover and micromanage. That is, when I talk to the paid caregivers a lot about, because of what Sue and I do, about what works and what doesn't work for them with families. And hovering and micromanaging is definitely one of those things that's

very unappealing for a professional caregiver. So find a way to leave the house. Once trust is built, your care receiver's in good shape, you feel like everybody's on the same page, find a way to go upstairs to a different room and watch TV or work, go out to lunch, go to the grocery store, do the things that, the reason you have a paid caregiver there is so you can actually go do other things. So get to the point where you're comfortable.

and go do those other things and let go.

Sue Ryan (20:41.942)
And I've learned in my life that resentments are unmet expectations. And when we're working, whether it's from our side or whether it's the professional caregiver, get really clear on their version of what hovering is or their version of things. again, as we're building trust and we're having these candid conversations, and again, it's hard to be really candid in the beginning because you're still kind of testing the waters out. But give each other permission to say, hey,

You know, I'd like to do this or hey, you know, I've got this and let me show you how I do it. And then when you can talk about it together and you get to give yourself, keep giving so both of you are comfortable giving each other more space, giving each other more responsibility. Because if you think about it, when the caregiver is taking more of the responsibility of the care of your loved one, you're getting more responsibility of caring for other things.

and you're going to be opening up doors of things that you haven't necessarily been doing. And for the professional caregiver to know that there'll be some of the things that you'll be doing might be a block of two or three hours, that as you're building things up, you're setting expectations of when different timeframes might be where you wouldn't be around and they would be doing that. The more you communicate and you clearly set expectations with each other, the more you just kind of work it out. It's the same as any other relationship.

Tiffany Robinson (22:09.915)
I like that clear expectations on both sides of what we're looking for. Now, I think that there is, and we all know this, an emotional labor that happens when you are a family caregiver. And we talk about, okay, we have this professional caregiver, you go do the things that maybe you haven't been doing. How do we as family caregivers kind of get over the guilt of it's okay, I need to provide care to myself, right? Be old saying you can't pour

from an empty cup, how do we how do we work past those feelings of I feel bad that I'm not doing everything?

Nancy Treaster (22:47.897)
That is pretty common at the beginning, especially if you're getting your first paid caregiver. You do feel guilty because you've always done all these things and now you're paying someone else to do them. And so you do feel guilty about that. So you do have to get over it, no question. And part of it is starting with giving yourself permission to not do everything. The best thing I can tell people is you really can't do it all yourself anyway. So get that out of your mind as your expectation for yourself. You can't as things...

get is the diagnosis or the or your loved one gets further down the path of their of what they're dealing with. Caregiving will get harder and it will get to the point where it's too hard for one person to do by themselves. So you've hired a paid caregiver because at some point something is going on that's that causes you to need support. Let yourself have permission to get that support. It's okay. And it's not even okay. It's

necessary in order to survive the caregiving experience and to get through the caregiving experience and have a successful, have a happy, healthy care receiver on the other end of it. So you really don't have a choice other than give yourself permission.

Sue Ryan (24:05.142)
And I look at it also from the fact that I'm big on not using the word guilt, because I'll say to people, well, have you ever looked up the word guilt in the dictionary? People will say, I feel so guilty. Well, guilt means you've done something wrong and you haven't really done anything wrong. And what we recognize, we may be modeling that we feel guilt because somebody else has said, I feel so guilty. What it actually is, is explore the emotions you're really feeling. You're sad.

about this. It makes you sad that your loved one, for example, can't just go out and grab lunch with you like they used to. And now your loved one can't even fix their own lunch and you wish that they could. My guidance is to think about what the real emotion actually is so that you're actually processing it. If what it is is that you're really sad that your loved one can't do something anymore and you've been caring for them and you've been doing that and now you brought someone into the home.

so that you can have permission to do something, to care for yourself, it allows you to recognize the importance of that because if you don't care for yourself, you don't have the capacity to care for your loved one. And it's a responsibility on your part, because nobody else can take care of you. It's your responsibility to find the ways where you can take care of yourself. So doing it from the healthiest emotional place.

is the most valuable way of saying it's the wisest choice for me to invest time doing this and to allow the caregiver who does know how to feed my loved one lunch to go ahead and feed them.

Tiffany Robinson (25:43.525)
I really like your description there of grief versus being sad. I think that is right on the money of what most people feel. They're sad in this change of the relationship. It's not the same. They may not, like you said, be able to go to a movie and go out to lunch. Things may look different right now.

You both have worked with caregivers in very different environments. Sue, in care communities, Nancy in your own home, what's consistent across both experiences and what shifts?

Nancy Treaster (26:20.525)
I think across both experiences is make sure you see the caregiver, see them as a person. Don't think of them as just, this is a paid caregiver and they're just randomly someone who I'm dealing with either in the community or at home. They're a person and so treat them with the kind of respect you treat any other person. And just make sure you see them and respect them and respect their expertise.

whether you're in a care community or whether they're at home, they're bringing expertise. They see your loved one through a different light because they have so much more experience dealing with whatever it is you're dealing with than you do. And so let their expertise come through. I will say, well, I'll talk about that later. I will say that understanding that they're a person requires you to think.

about the kinds of things you talk about in front of them, but I'll talk about that. I'll save that for a little bit later.

Sue Ryan (27:20.524)
Yeah, I think Nancy, you've framed it out so beautifully, though, because when we look at someone as a team member and we literally look at every single person with my loved one in a care community, every single person was a member of the team. They if they were the people who were doing the laundry, they were a valuable part of the team. If they were the people preferring the food, they were a valuable part of the team. If they were doing the entertainment, everyone is a part of the team. And when you know, you know, together, everyone achieves more.

When we look at them as doing something valuable in support of our loved ones, and we're a part of that team, what is it on our side we can be doing to support them being in the best position to do their job the very, best that they possibly can so that we are all collaborating together as a team? The more we model being a team, the more they see the potential and possibilities of a team, the more they begin working as a team.

more we communicate, for example, in a community, the more we communicate with other family members in the community about treating each person as a team. So we're all doing that. It's where everyone is going to have a more positive impact.

Nancy Treaster (28:34.201)
Sue, one more thing I think that you made me think of is if you want the door to be open to critique, to give them critique on something that you would like them to do differently, you need to balance that with praise for the things that they're doing well.

So you need to also be always thinking they're on the team. If you were the leader of the team, which you are, by the way, if you're the primary caregiver, if you're the leader of a team, you're going to be just as focused on motivating people by recognizing their successes, recognizing what they're doing well, as directing people to things you want them to do differently. So think of yourself as the team lead and treat them the way you treat other people on your team.

Tiffany Robinson (29:32.187)
love that idea of being the team lead. And also when we're thinking about critique, we're bringing in that praise because there are things that they are doing wonderfully for your loved one that you are appreciative of. But there's other things where you may say, I think this might be the better way, the better solution. And so I do like that balance. also really like the mindset of team versus employee. I think that changes the dynamic a little bit. Now we are kind of coming towards the end of

episodes. So I have a few more questions I want to I want to pose to both of you. What's one thing that you wish every family caregiver knew?

Nancy Treaster (30:15.811)
So this is my soapbox. This is why I saved it for later. This is my soapbox. Sue knows this. I'm climbing up on it. When you're in the care community or you're at home, you're visiting, you're with your care receiver and other people come in to visit. So you have your friends are coming over and you're hosting them. Don't treat the care, paid caregiver as if they're not there.

Sue Ryan (30:19.214)
She's climbing up on it right now.

Tiffany Robinson (30:21.255)
Hehehe

Nancy Treaster (30:45.411)
Don't have divisive conversations. Don't talk about politics. Don't talk about religion. Go in another room if that's what you need to talk about. Don't have divisive conversations and treat the caregiver like they're a piece of furniture. And why do I know this? Because I've had caregivers tell me that's what happens in other houses. I had a caregiver tell me that one time it got so divisive and she was sitting in a corner with the care receiver and it was so offensive to her what they were talking about.

that she literally got up and said to the person who had hired her, I'll be in my car if you need me. Don't put them in that position. That's terrible. So just keep that in mind.

Tiffany Robinson (31:23.591)
That's huge, absolutely.

Sue Ryan (31:26.114)
The advice that I would give is we're all on this journey together and that we all have different lenses. We all have different parts of it. When we see each other as a part of the journey, the last thing I ever want a caregiver to feel like or to say out loud is I feel so alone. You're not alone. There are people around, there are resources around. Reach out. Never, ever feel alone.

Tiffany Robinson (31:47.624)
Peace.

Tiffany Robinson (31:57.117)
That is very, very important. They are not alone. This is for family caregivers as well as professional caregivers also feel that same way. What is the most surprising lesson you've learned through caregiving?

Sue Ryan (32:05.25)
Yep. Yep.

Nancy Treaster (32:16.387)
think we already hit it, which is...

Caring for yourself is 50 % of the equation. It's just as important as caring for your care receiver. And so the reason you're bringing paid caregivers in is to help, maybe for things that you don't know how to handle anymore or they're beyond your capabilities, but also so that you can take the time to go care for yourself. So use that time and don't hover, don't micromanage. Once they got it, go care for yourself.

Tiffany Robinson (32:29.585)
Right.

Sue Ryan (32:53.602)
Our journeys are perfectly imperfect journeys. They are going to give us surprises continuously. And the more that we accept the imperfection of it, the more grace we can provide. Give ourselves and give everyone else grace upon grace upon grace. It's so easy for us, especially if we're tired or we're caring for our loved one and something seems like it's wrong, to...

to wanna judge or to do something else. Just, you know, like, hey, let's work together on this. It is a perfectly imperfect journey. We'll get through it together and let's do it together.

Nancy Treaster (33:32.835)
That's a really good point, Just because it didn't happen on your watch, whatever it was, they fell or something, it's not, that doesn't mean it was not going to happen on your watch, whatever it is. So you have to give everybody grace who's supporting you and supporting your care received.

Sue Ryan (33:46.926)
And to that point, one final tiny detail on that. When you hear about loved ones in a care community, for example, who start going into other people's rooms or doing other things, if they were home, they'd be doing that too.

Nancy Treaster (34:00.217)
That's true, Sue, that's so true. We do hear that a lot. Their loved ones diagnosis gets worse and they progress in their diagnosis and people don't realize that just because they enter a care community, everything doesn't stay the same. They're still going to get worse and things are going to happen like they're going to fall and such. You have to be gracious that the paid care receivers are doing, the paid caregivers are doing everything they can to support your loved one no matter what.

Tiffany Robinson (34:31.315)
Absolutely, think giving grace is, I think you both were right on par with that. As we come to a close, can you share with our listeners where they can find out more about your nonprofit, The Caregiver Journey, as well as Sue's book, Our Journey of Love.

Nancy Treaster (34:53.433)
So you can, well, so you don't want to take that. On our website, you'll find, our website is the caregiversjourney.org. so you'll find an icon that says books. So you can click on that, you can get to Sue's book, or you can go to the dropdown to learn. And under the learn icon, you'll find guides, which are guides supporting different topics, as well as Sue's book on that icon.

Sue Ryan (35:22.894)
and you'll find the links to the podcast. And then what we've done, because when you're, for example, you're a busy caregiver, you're really listening to the podcast, you're not writing down notes. And what we've done is with every podcast episode, we put show notes beneath it that's pretty much the transcript. And we also create a blog post and the resources that we provide. part of the reason that we created this as a nonprofit is we want to make sure that we're able to give you at little, and mostly no cost, all of the guides are complimentary.

we wanted to be able to give you a variety of resources. So when you go to the caregiversjourney.org, you can find all of those pieces of content. And we've got things that we're coming out with on a regular basis for that.

Tiffany Robinson (36:06.169)
I was just looking at your site the other day and I was shocked at how many downloadable guides there are. mean, there's just so much information in one place. So Sue, Nancy, thank you both for this honest and empowering conversation. You've given us so much to think about when it comes to building strong care relationships. We appreciate your time today.

Nancy Treaster (36:29.753)
Thank you very much. appreciate it as well.

Sue Ryan (36:32.046)
Thanks, we're all on this journey together.